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Stepping down

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Blank De Ratche
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Post by Blank De Ratche Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:33 pm

I've been thinking about this for a while and I've kinda lost my passion for the game too. I'm still planning on playing but not really as often or nearly as much. I've decided to step down as guild leader. I wanted to put it here first so we can discuss it before we bring it to the officers. I Don't want to be an officer or anything, I was thinking soldier or squire. I'm sure this is a temporary thing, (went through this a few times in GW1)but it will probably be more than a few months. I'm not doing any good as the leader atm being so part time so Basically, who should be the new guild leader?
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Post by d-shadow Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:49 am

id suggest eiither beau or flynx
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Post by The Beau Brothers Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:05 pm

Ratche, personally, I feel that unless you think you will be disappearing for long periods of time that you should keep the throne.  The only reason we had a problem with Master Dayle was that he was gone for extended periods of time and nobody knew how to reach him when the King was needed to take care of Guild business.  If you are still going to be playing at least weekly, and will be reachable in case of significant game changes I have no problem with you being semi-inactive.

That being said.  I will take the King chair back if that is what the guild decides, but I've been getting a bit bored with the game myself.  Also, I will freely admit that I do tend to make erratic and spontaneous decisions.  I know a few people would probably not be happy with me taking lead back.  (Sorry about talking about people reading as if you were not here, but easier this way)

Flynx would be a very stable choice and I would fully back Flynx.  However, his play time is irregular and is not super social.  

Tia would be an interesting choice.  He is very knowledgeable about the game and has good connections with other guilds.  However, he is not very socially engaged with the guild.  Sometimes he is.  I would not object to Tia.

Kitty is another option for Queen.  However, I know there is some friction between Kitty and Diablo.  And, I hate to admit it, but there are also a few lingering doubts about the over all Kitty/Kara saga.  I know I made the right choice supporting Kitty, but there were a few things that just didn't sit right.  I couldn't even say what they were specifically anymore, but I don't know.  I love you Kitty I love you

Beez would be an interesting choice.  Probably one of our most active players, and super social.  Not really the leader type though.  

Andrea for Queen!  She would be like the closest thing to a reincarnation of our sweetest Kiera.  (Seriously though, she should be at least Knight again, even if just for recruiting.  Aaron never lived up to his recruiting job in that time zone.)
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Post by The Beau Brothers Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:17 pm

I spoke with Ratche a bit today and we think this should be opened up for discussion with all the officers.
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Post by d-shadow Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:29 pm

welli gotta say i fully agree with NOT making beezty,kitty or tia leader...

andrea i would support for leader but ther are reasons thati tihnk we should not burden her with it
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Post by Kittynne Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:32 pm

OK here we go (don't hate me guys):

Flynx: I would say no to him being leader.  He is not very engaged with the guild, at least from what I've seen. I hear he talks on TS but I consider TS a secondary means to communicate, as guild chat is what is built into the game and the core means of communication.  TS is only used by a small portion of our guild, other than during guild missions.  As a regular member, I didn't even know Flynx really existed, for the most part. He seems very mature and responsible though, so it's really just the lack of engagement that is an issue imo.

Diablo: Personality not suitable for leader.  I think he'd agree with that, and I think he likes keeping his role as sort of a bit of a shit-disturber sometimes, hehe.

Beau: Not quite suitable for leader.  I love you Beau, but indeed you make very impulsive decisions and you are often led by your emotions.  While this is not a bad thing in terms of loyalty and overall loveliness, it is not suited for being top dog.  Some of the recent stuff that not everyone is aware of, but Ratche and Beau are certainly aware of, point to this.

Myself: Too new and also I don't want it (please for the love of all things good, don't ever make me lead another guild again).  BTW I know there is "lingering doubt" over the thing with Kara, but that really pisses me off since I didn't bring this about, and I got my name and reputation dragged in the mud over her own personal bullshit hangups and jealousy.  But that aside, I'm too new to lord.  It would not be the right choice.

Tia: I know some might object, and some feel he is not as socially engaged.  But he's our best option at the moment, imo.  He observes and notices, and while I sometimes disagree with his desire to make decisions without knowing the whole picture (it's like being a politician lol), he generally keeps a cool head about things, and doesn't let emotions get in the way.

As for Knights:
Beez: Definitely very social, but she doesn't want the role.  More work and more seriousness than her personality suits.

Andrea: Definitely NOT a viable candidate.  Her indecision with staying in game, let alone in the guild or even staying an officer, make her a significant risk.  She is also emotionally young, and needs a lot of personal-development before she can be considered as a candidate for this kind of leadership position.  TBH I don't feel she is suited to being an officer right now either, even though Beau wants to rush her back into the role.  She's not ready to be an officer, no matter how much we love her.


Other officers not mentioned:
It's unfortunate, I actually think that Yuri and Pseudo might have some of the right temperment to leading a guild, but Yuri doesn't have the time to do so, and Pseudo not only doesn't have the time, he's a super super new officer.

** edited for clarity and spelling


Last edited by Kittynne on Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Kittynne Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:46 pm

Also, with regards to Beau's suggestion that Ratche stay as leader even if he's not playing. I'll be honest. Ideally it would be nice if Ratche stayed leader. But he needs to be active to be leader. We drop officers who are taking a leave of absence, why wouldn't we do so for the leader?

And I kind of get the feeling that leadership is part of what makes the game less fun for him. I think letting him step down will give him some breathing room, so if he DOES come back to the game, he will be able to actually enjoy it, without the politics and responsibility and expectation.

Also, I don't know that this should be a larger discussion with all the officers. I mean, this is the kind of thing that you HAVE the lord position for. Also, putting it to the officer group could have some negative impact with airing of dirty laundry and also of upset feelings (trust me, I've seen this happen). It should be something that can be sorted out amongst the lords.

And even if we DO consider some of the knights for the promotion, we can still make those decisions here first. And maybe as a final sanity check, after we have a short list, we might, if we really want, consider putting THAT short list to the rest of the officers.

my 2c
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Post by Blank De Ratche Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:46 pm

All very thought out and good answers. I'm not disappearing, I'm too anal to not log in for like half an hour a day or so to get dailys done, I'm just not really enjoying the game as much as I was. But I'm also not active in chat, and most days I just kinda sneak on and off. Honestly I think a few months (maybe more) at low activity will get me wanting back in the swing of things. My concern now is that I am not doing more than the bare minimum as guild leader right now and would like for someone who would do a better job to have it. Someone who wants it. I don't plan on leaving until this is decided.

Also I don't know if Tia wants it but atm I think he may be the best choice.

Bruno (flynx) has enough going on right now not to need this.

Kitty is too new, doesn't want it, and I'm not sure she could put up with us as easily as leader.

Dio, beez, andrea, I don't think any of them have the right temperament for it for different reasons.

Beau did an amazing job as leader before and I think he would be a good choice but he is a bit too emotional at times which as kitty said makes him a great officer but you need someone to check you every once in a while beau.

And Me, not socially engaged at all anymore, not really playing more than a few hours a week and a bit more on weekends. When I get on now I mostly jsut want to get stuff done and log. If I was ranking people here by who I would want to be leader right now I'd be near, if not at, the bottom of the list.

All that being said, it's not a hard job, as long as you are willing to listen to what people say, take responsibility for what happens, and deal with the problems. Gotta let your hard-ass side out occasionally, As long as you have AoLs best interest at heart and don't try to be a real king (or queen) and decide everything on your own, then I'll support you and do anything I can to help

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Post by Kittynne Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:55 pm

Also, I'm not sure any of us have said it yet but I think it goes without saying but should be said anyways:

Thank you very much Ratche for the time and effort and energy and care and attention you have put into leading us. It's not easy sometimes, and I think you did your best to be fair and objective. I, for one, am glad to hear that you are not leaving the game completely, and while it is sad to see you want to step down, I totally understand and support your choice to step down, if it means you will be able to find your love for the game again in time.
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Post by The Beau Brothers Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:26 pm

I was really just joking about Andrea. Having someone that reminds me of Kiera is just a sweet thought. She could not be Queen.
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Post by The Beau Brothers Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:43 pm

Not mentioned before, and I'm not sure if he would be interested, but Captain Ozone successfully ran Boom for years until Saj messed it up.
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Post by fictitiousacct Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:02 am

First of all, I wouldn't mind at the moment.

Second of all, the officers should at this point get involved due to the fact we have talked it over and fleshed out ideas regarding people with the potential to lead from this point forward.
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Post by Blank De Ratche Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:33 pm

sounds good, unless there are any objectives I'm going start a discussion in the officer channel
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Post by The Beau Brothers Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:47 pm

I should amend my socially engaged comment about Tia.  He is socially engaged... I think just some of the times I am watching he is busy in dungeons.  People could say the same about me.  My social time comes in spurts.  I am terrible about being social when I am busy.

I think Tia could be a good choice, but I do have some fears about Tia and anyone really.

My main concern with any new promotion is if someone's ideas of what AoL should be deviate too far from what we are, I would hate to see sudden and drastic changes based on what someone believes a guild should be.  Some people have been in more structured and specialized guilds before.  I'm not sure if I could stomach seeing AoL change in any major way.  We are primarily a social guild.  I don't want to see that change.  If someone feels that our social members are jokes, because they cannot hack it like a full Berzerker group, that is an unacceptable attitude for leader.  Part of the problem with Kara was great ideas, but pushing too hard too fast.  (The bigger problem of course was using underhanded and dishonest methods to get her way and trying to take out other officers in her path.)

I will not mind some changes in AoL, but I don't want to see the spirit of AoL as it is die.


Last edited by The Beau Brothers on Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:59 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Post by The Beau Brothers Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:52 pm

Before we put it to the other officers, shouldn't we come up with a short list of Lord's recommendations?  The officers of course could make their own recommendations.  

Looking over this thread, it seems like every recommendation has at least one person who thinks it is a bad idea.  Flynx has not had a chance to comment yet either.

Tia and I are the only people who have not declined the position so far.

(edit: short list was Kitty's idea of course)
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Post by d-shadow Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:31 pm

for short lsit only ones of all suggestions here are few yes and no

only 2 are atm gonna be getitng yes from me... tohse 2 are beau and cpt

tho soem of you are seemingly voting for tia i must say im 500% AGAINST him being leader due all previous happenings...imho he is not suitable for leadership
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Post by Kittynne Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:22 pm

I think at this point, there is no real "short list".

There are good reasons for Beau to not be leader right now, and perhaps D isn't aware of these problems, but I'd say Ratche is most aware of them and his opinion is pretty important.  I love you as an officer Beau, but I am of the opinion that your overly passionate love for the guild is what makes you absolutely not the right leader for the guild, for now at least.  The climate may have been more suited to it in the past, but I'd say with how things are now, especially with the incident a couple months ago, there are some officers who are probably still wary of you being 100% in charge.  But I still love you. <3

Also, I should point out that Beau _has_ indeed been making some improvements since that incident a few months ago, and is definitely showing his more collaborative and less impulsive side.  But I think if anything, maybe some more personal development time in that regard might be needed.  So maybe down the road he might be a more suitable candidate, but right now I'd say no on making him, essentially, CEO. Very Happy

As for Tia, right now I see only D saying no, and Ratche, Beau, and myself seeming to be weighing yes or semi-yes to Tia.  But I'd say that there are _some_ concerns about Tia being leader too, in some respects.  So even he is not a definite 100% yes either.

So, with respect, I'd like to ask, D, can you please elaborate on why you feel Tia would not be a suitable leader?  You elude to previous happenings, but you don't make it clear if these are truly objective reasons, or more of a personal issue.  Without more specifics, it's really hard to understand your point of view. Smile

Also, Ozone was suggested as a potential leader.  I'm going to say no on him, since he, like Flynx, isn't particularly engaged with the guild as far as I can see, so it would seem like a stranger is taking over, regardless of how much experience or history he has with the guild.

Also, with regards to bringing a "short list" to the officers, I don't think we have reached the point where the even IS a short list that we can agree upon as Lords.  And bringing a couple names to the rest of the officers right now would open up a huge can of worms where we'd have to give specifics and details as to why some of us disagree with people on the short list, no?

Short lists are generally only useful if we have more than one candidate that we feel are a good solid choice, and we are not sure which of those we should choose.  Right now, we seem to not even agree on who is a good solid choice.

Specifically, I think D is the most in disagreement right now, so I'm really looking forward to hearing more detail as to his reasoning for or against certain people, and I think this is a safer place to air out those feelings than in the general officer circle.


* note: edits are for clarity and grammar


Last edited by Kittynne on Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:49 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Post by Kittynne Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:24 pm

Also I don't know if we want to broach this subject here, but there is also, of course, the chance to look at a different type of leadership structure too. You know, if we really are unable to come to some sort of decision here. But let's try and come to a decision before we look for another way out. Very Happy
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Post by Blank De Ratche Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:07 pm

Right now, and not to sound full of myself, I don't think there is a perfect choice. It would probably be best if I stayed leader and stayed in the game and kept things going as they were before. but I don't have the desire and that alone makes me a bad choice. The way I see it we have beau and tia as our 2 choices. Both have their pluses and negatives, most of which has been already brought up on this thread. I don't see this discussion as going anywhere at the moment. I'd like to take the choices to the officers because personally I'm not sure who I would vote for. I'm probably leaning towards beau because I don't think anyone cares more about AoL then he does. Looking back over the thread Dio is for Beau, and Kitty is for Tia. So basically its a tie atm. I think our choices now are Take it to the officers or I decide. If it is taken to the officers then I would like to be the one to do it.



OH and kitty, thank you very much for the kind words, means alot.
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Post by Kittynne Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:14 pm

<33333

I'll be honest, I'm not 100% sure I'm for Tia over Beau. Which is why I was curious to hear D's concerns, because I don't see 100% of what happens all the time. Smile
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Post by The Beau Brothers Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:20 pm

Ratche, I hate to see you step down.  I didn't choose you by accident.  Out of the original members that remained, I thought you were the only choice.  I did put it up for a vote for show, but it couldn't have happened any other way.  We haven't always seen eye to eye, but I've always trusted you to make the right decision more than anyone else, myself included.  I know in the real world we don't know each other from Adam, but I've counted you as a friend.

If you choose to make this decision yourself, I will trust your judgement.  However, I think this should be open for discussion at the least amongst the officers, but even amongst squires and regular members.  I know I'm more for freedom of information than Kitty, but this is a  decision that effects the entire guild.  I think the entire guild should know what's going on.
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Post by The Beau Brothers Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:51 pm

Let's start with just the officers. Kitty and I talked and the entire guild could get messy. But, I would like the opinion of some of the Squires. Some squires are currently more active than Knights.
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Post by Blank De Ratche Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:13 pm

I'd agree with that beau, I don't think it's really something that should be thrown out there. It's never been in the past. I agree with the officers and will post something about it within the next few days to give us more time to talk about it here. Oh and I've always considered you a friend too. Thanks for the words.
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Post by Flynx Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:08 am

Ok. Just heard from Beau about this tonight and I just read this thread so here's my thoughts.

First, Leadership change, we know from experience, is a damned big deal. It can cause unintentional havoc. Im saddened that you want to step down Ratche but I certainly respect it. You've been an excellent leader.

I wouldnt accept top dog because Im unsuited for it. I know myself well enough and as you all know I have RL issues that include my health. You are all correct about my lack of social engagement as well. I do care for you all but I am not a talker by anyone's measure. Just not in my nature.

I would say Beau is our best choice for all of the reason's brought up above.

Tia also has his strong points. I will get back to him in a moment.

No one has mentioned Kainis who would also make a strong leader though I suspect he wouldnt accept.

I propose an alternate solution.

First, we keep final control of the guild in Ratche's hands. That means if someone disappears (which happened to us) or creates unacceptable havoc the guild will survive as a guild no matter what.

Meanwhile since Beau and Tia keep different schedules due to RL and time zone differences we split the top spot between them as say Leader and Alternate. This way neither has to take the full load of responsibilities upon themselves at all times.

We will eventually have new people in the top spots in this guild and we need to accept that changes that we may not like will occur. Those of us who have been with the guild the longest are becoming scarce. Anyone accepting the top spot in the guild should be made aware that they have been promoted to maintain the essence of this guild, not to alter it to something unrecognisable.

I am also curious why D is so against Tia taking a leadership position. I think Ozone is a great guy but I wouldnt have him as AoL's Guild Leader until he'd been a member for a MUCH longer time.

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Post by The Beau Brothers Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:57 am

Very good points Flynx.  Thank you for commenting Very Happy

I would have mentioned Kainis, but he has hinted at leaving GW2 for another game, and he doesn't seem interested in Guild politics at all.  He rarely even comments in the Officers section.  He would make a great leader if I thought he would be around for the long haul.

I've also recommended that Ratche keep the Throne unless he is going to disappear for extended time.  The Lords can run the show without much change.  Lord's already have most guild permissions, except for a couple that are reserved for only the Leader. As long as Ratche is reachable for major changes or decisions, I'm fine with him staying there.  However, I do understand if he does not want that responsibility hanging over him.
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Post by Blank De Ratche Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:31 pm

Thank you bruno. I don't really want to be involved in the decision making process etc , at least for a while. I still will log on most days and for guild missions, but I'd like to do it more as a member than the leader. That being said, I have no problem keeping all the power (evil laugh) We can have more than one leader though one is always above the other. (Learned that from the whole dayle fiasco) but I don't want to be seen as a leader, so if you all want we could change my rank name to something else (figurehead etc) and give the new leader the title of King as they would truly be the guilds leader. They would have all the same abilities as I do now, with the exception of being able to demote me. I don't know if we really need me as a backup plan but I would do it if that is the general consensus
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Post by The Beau Brothers Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:41 pm

There are a couple of Top Dog only abilities that are not even listed in the Rank table for anyone lower than King. That was why we had issues when Dayle disappeared. I'm not sure if it is possible to create an equivalent rank. You might be able to promote someone to the same rank as King.
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Post by The Beau Brothers Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:54 pm

Hmmm.... just checked, maybe their isn't anything special.  What was it that we needed Dayle to do that he couldn't delegate to power to one of us for? I seem to remember them activating new Guild "stuff" of some sort and we could not access it as regular officers.
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Post by Blank De Ratche Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:57 pm

I believe we just wanted Dayle out so he couldn't cause any more damage. I'm pretty sure Both leaders had the same powers, except Dayle could demote you but not the other way around.
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Post by Blank De Ratche Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:12 pm

So not to be pushy or anything, but where do we want to go with this?
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Post by The Beau Brothers Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:37 pm

I was kind-of waiting for your next move. Don't really think I have more to add.
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Post by fictitiousacct Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:28 pm

No real decisions have been made, just suggestions so far.  Ultimately it looks to be your decision ratche, and we still ought to get the officers involved in some of this as well.
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