Kara (not) for Lord

Another good topic for this private forum would be Lord promotion.  Lord promotion should be very selective.  And, Lord knows we don't always live up to our own expectations  However.....

I know her work schedule/activity has been hit or miss lately, but Kara is one of our hardest working officers.  Just tossing this out here.  If we are to consider a new Lord, Kara is on the top of my list.

(edited by kitty: added "(not)" to add clarity to thread title. no other modifications made)

Theres a little situation atm that I want to get resolved first. It's getting done though.

My vote is a strong no.  Even if/when the current issue is resolved, I am going to vote no for at least the near future.  There is too much negative perception right now, regardless of how much she does.  She comes across as power-hungry, dishonest, and manipulative.

By the way, I hope the Lords here are mature enough to keep this discussion private and not share what is said here with her or other officers or other members of the guild.

I have no clue about the current issue. I have not been informed. Power hungry or a threat to perceived power?

She does seem to take her job of monitoring new recruits very seriously.  But, if what we want is more structure, she is definitely providing it.  I seem to remember having my power/authority questioned/challenged at one point.  I threw a temper tantrum too at the time.

The Beau Brothers wrote:I have no clue about the current issue.  I have not been informed.  Power hungry or a threat to perceived power?

Kitty can explain it better than I can. I'm not worried about her though, the only thing I would say is we can't let her have most of the interactions with the new recruits, not that I don't trust her, I do, but that's how Saj ruined BOOM.

The things I am seeing her do (beyond the concern that ratche has about new recruits) are things that have ruined guilds that have long histories, btw. The buying of loyalties, for instance. I'm not sure why you two boys don't see it ... perhaps I understand girls better than you ... or I am just more intuitive about these things, I don't know (no offense).

We can have a larger discussion about it in the near future. My mind is a little too focused on some other irl things atm (ratche is aware of these things). But I stand very very strong on the NO for lord right now.

There is no hurry to promote. I was just tossing it out there. I will try to look for other clues to what you are hinting at. I've seen her eager to help. Yes eager to control too, but it has not seemed overly much to me. I've never witnessed her trying to "buy" loyalty. However, I will try to keep a closer eye on her. It sucks that I do not have the play time I used to. I cannot keep my birds eye view of the guild that I used to enjoy

too soon currently. Also, we better have some guidelines set up on the lord position to fully flesh out who's qualified or not first.

After investigating the issue, I do withdraw my nomination for Kara.

I am not happy with the things I've learned. I was giving her the benefit of the doubt at first. I was even practically fully defending her. However, the more I have learned from others, and from playing along with her game, the more I have realized that she is dishonest and manipulative. Her stories get more outrageous as she goes. I bought into it at first, especially since I took something Kitty had said to me as an insult. That made me want to believe some of the things Kara was saying.

As they say though, if you give someone enough rope, they are likely to hang themselves with it. The more I listened to Kara and played lets bitch about Kitty, the more outrageous she became.

I like Kara and Aaron. They are a lot of fun, but the methods Kara is using to get what she wants are not cool. I can expound on this more at some point, but my brain is tired and I need to finish my planning for the week.

Thank you Beau for that.

(For the record, the thing beau took as an insult from me, I think we have confirmed that it was NOT an insult)

I am starting to hear some very disturbing things now, by the way.  I have been told by at least two people now that Kara is talking about me, and making up some outrageous lies about me, and making this known to other people in the guild.  This concerns me greatly, as this issue should only be discussed, really, between her and myself, or at the very most, between her and myself and ratche, or MAYBE even the rest of the lords or officers.  But really, this whole situation should be private and only be discussed among those who are involved, imo.

Ratche had asked me if I could have a talk with her, in Ratche's presence.  At this point, if she is spreading lies about me, I am not sure what having a 3 way convo is going to do, other than give her more fuel to gossip about with other guildies.  Or an opportunity to make more drama and lies and play victim.

I have not been sharing this information among guild members, as I consider this matter not something that is to be shared with the general population.  The incident that fueled this situation had to do with an officer matter, that I had requested we discuss on the forums so that all officers were able to give feedback.  After receiving her agreement that we would do that, she endeavoured to bypass getting feedback from others, and went straight to Ratche to come up with a "brilliant idea" that she would receive sole credit for.  While I don't care about who gets "credit", I DO care about others not being given a chance to have input.  And I DO care that she originally agreed to let me bring it up with ratche and have a forum discussion about it, and less than 12 hours later she privately went to ratche to stop that from happening.

The other thing I am concerned about is that she has told some outrageous lies about another guildie (a very beloved guildie, I should add) to myself and a few others.  I'm not sure how many people she told, but if she is spreading misinformation about me right now, I worry how many people she told about this other guildy a couple months ago (shortly after being made officer).

This feels very high school and I am getting quite tired of it, tbh.

fictitiousacct wrote:too soon currently. Also, we better have some guidelines set up on the lord position to fully flesh out who's qualified or not first.

This too. I'm probably not actually qualified anyways, hehe.

I think though, if we flesh out guidelines in greater detail, we will have to decide what to do if existing lords (myself included) do not meet the guidelines. And if we decide to grandfather in existing lords, what will be our partyline message about it if questioned?

Wow I am totally out of the loop here, I'm at a loss. Kitty you should handle this how you feel best, and I'll back you. If you want me to go to Kara about this stuff I can do that, I'll just need specifics. Also if you would like to talk to her privately, or with me, or whatever, that's totally up to you. But if she is doing these kinda things, it needs to be stopped right now, before it gets worse.

I'm 100% certain a mediator is necessary within any talk between kittyn and kara at this point in time.

As for the position and fleshing that out, it can go various ways, but as of now we have not much to go on to even say we are meeting it or not.  It can be as general or specific as we want, it just needs to exist is all I'm saying.

Thank you for your support Ratche, and thank you tia for your input too.  But I honestly do not know where to go with this atm.  I can't think of any conversational approach that would be effective at this point.

I'd like to hear more from Beau when he has the time and energy, since he has had what sounds like a lengthy conversation (bitch session lol) with her.  Also, Beau talked to me a bit more today, and has some ideas as to what he thinks we should do next. I suggested he discuss it here, and let the rest of the lords and ratche be our sanity check before we make our next move. And I think I need to think and brainstorm on this some more too.

Also, I think we're beyond the point where it would be safe for me to converse with her alone, since she is accusing me of saying things which I would never say. But I also wonder if it's even safe to have a mediated conversation. No matter what happens, we cannot control what she says to other people who were not part of the conversation. And she seems to be willing to stoop to some pretty low levels to tarnish reputations of those she gets her sights on.

screenshots are your friend kitty, if for any reason you do talk to her, make sure you screenshot the entire conversation.

Two things that Kara has said to me that at best are twisting of the facts and at worst are out right lies are:  

Kitty told her that nobody liked her and even hated her and the way she is doing things.  This is why she became inactive for a while. -- That first part is not something that I believe Kitty would do especially not the hated part.  The second part is not consistent with what she has told me and others before about why she had to be inactive.  

The other is that she told me that Kitty was absolutely raging over our last disagreement, and that Kitty wanted me kicked out of the guild.  I can believe that Kitty was very angry with me at the time and probably had a few choice words with her friends about me, but I doubt that she spread around, especially to Kara, that she wanted me kicked out.

Those were the two biggies that made me change my mind about Kara.

Andrea is trying to play mediator and do her own questioning right now.  I would kind of like to see what she makes of this.  However, if Kara keeps up bad mouthing Kitty and trying to turn people against her, we may have to take more swift action.  

I do not want this to get uglier that it is already.  I know we may lose some people, but if it looks like it is going to get uglier and not better....  I think we should seriously consider kicking her out quickly.

I really hate to say that because I thought that Kara and Aaron were a lot of fun.  I will miss them, but we cannot have her wrecking the guild.

A couple of things:

1. At no point did I tell Kara that nobody likes her, or that anybody hates her.  This is also not why she told me and several others that she became inactive.  I will elaborate more on that in a later post, when I have had a chance to think and recall the events surrounding that.

2. I was extremely pissed at Beau, definitely.  I had some choice words with a couple of close friends about it, but not with Kara.  (Kara and I talked a bit about policy regarding how to recruit better instead of a recruiting contest.  She also expressed to me a very large list of officers she felt should be demoted. But that is another matter.)  At no point did I want Beau kicked from the guild.  What I wanted from Beau was an apology, a change in behaviour, and failing that, a demotion until he was willing to cooperate with the rest of the officers.  I can't imagine why I'd even think to tell Kara I wanted Beau kicked out.  I had told ratche that I was willing to leave the guild if Beau had wanted to continue to hold the reigns and stay in charge, making unilateral decisions.  Me offering to leave the guild is very different than me wanting Beau kicked out.  But yes, sorry Beau, I was very angry at you.  It's ok though, you were really angry at me too!

Overall I really do not like this situation.  And while I do not like that I am the target, I am strong enough to suffer the blows.  In trying to think of why I am the chosen target, I can think of a couple of contributing factors.

1. I am outspoken.  This can be seen as threatening to some.
2. Beau and I had that butting of heads recently.  This may have been seen as the weak spot.
3. I am female.  Seriously, girls are mean to each other.

Anyways, I will try and recall the details of the interaction Kara had with me when she returned from her absence.  It paints a very different picture than what Beau is saying Kara is claiming.

Stay tuned!

As I understand it, Beau had a talk with Graw today, and immediately afterwards, Kara left the guild suddenly without saying a word in guild chat.

As a preemptive measure, Beau and I agreed to remove Kara's access to the Officer forum (since leaving the guild suddenly does come with it the consequence that you are no longer an officer in the guild).  Shortly afterwards, she appeared in the active users list, as well as Graw.  As again, a preemptive measure, we have also banned her account from the forums.  If the issue is resolved we can always reverse the ban, but if she has truly left the guild, she doesn't require access to the guild forums anyways.  Apologies that the two of us made these choices without running it by other Lords or Ratche, but we did what we felt was best at the time, to limit her access as quickly as possible.

I believe Beau has removed her officer rank on TS also, or will soon.

As to what happened, Beau will have to fill us in.  For the record, I did NOT have any conversation with her before or after her leaving.

As to where we go from here, that will need to be discussed of course.

From what I can see, we (I guess only beau in this case) reacted quickly and defensively, as if she was in any position to completely do something bad to the guild.  Honestly, I think we're rushing things a bit and are too closed about this situation right now.  In hindsight, it should've been noted that she has suffered from psychological issues (mainly depression) before, and to be whispering people behind their back leads to some very bad problems.  Now what's done is done at this point, and we can only think about what to do from here on out.  From what I can presume, she will have nothing but bad memories within this guild from all that I could see.  Now do we want to end this on a better note?  We do need to resolve this sooner or later and if this continues, graw will definitely leave the guild as well.  Honestly, we ought to be more direct about issues that draw out as long as it does, especially with officers.

I want to inform everyone here that this guild is a laid back guild.  We intend to be drama-free for the most part, and intend so for our members ideally.  So we, as lords, ought to be preventing drama as best we can.  This does not mean we will always be right in our actions, but that is the ideal.

Honestly, we may need closure both with kara and anyone associating with her normally.  I know for certain that some members are aware of tension going on within, from beau, kittyn and kara.  So it'd be in our best interests to have some closure regarding the matter, and that it be done (sooner the better).

oh i propose a guild officer meeting asap

I should note that when I spoke to Aaron (Graw) I only told him that I had lost faith in Kara's words. That I believed she was exaggerating about the things she claimed Kitty did. I did not tell him that I wanted Kara to leave. I told him that I still wanted to talk to Kara and that I hoped things could be worked out. Kara left on her own without speaking to me or anyone else that I am aware of.

After she left, she whispered me and told me that she could not believe that we were all falling for Kitty's lies. She said we were all duped and that Kitty had this guild wrapped around her little finger. She warned me to watch my back.

Whether or not Kara is suffering from depression, that is no reason to start spreading lies and trying to undercut and discredit Kitty.

If you remember Tia, when I first talked to you to see if you knew anything about what was going on, I was fully defending Kara. You told me I was being overly emotional about Kitty. You were right, I was being overly emotional about Kitty. I spent Saturday night talking to Kara. I bitched with her about Kitty, and that is when she revealed herself to me with what I believe are lies.

I know my questioning people may have spread the drama some, but with the exception of a few people who I thought I could get information from, I only asked what there opinion of Kara and Kitty was. I was trying to form my own opinion. I felt left in the dark about the original issues as well.

This issue was a ticking time bomb of drama waiting to blow up in our faces. I actually think her leaving on her own is the best possible result. She can still whisper people and cause problems, but it is done.

I do think we will need closure on the issue, but I do not want to make it a dramatic closing. A meeting will probably be a good idea.

I don't think Graw will leave on his own. That is a connected issue that also need to be discussed.

(I'm just going to vent for a moment)

*sigh* I am getting very tired of this situation.  I am at the point where I am having to waste a lot of time defending myself against lies and slander, and I don't really understand why I'm being so vindictively targeted anymore either.  The accusations are escalating to the point of irrationality.

Beau I know you meant well and I appreciate you being willing to open your mind and weigh both sides of the situation.  I still think, as I mentioned to you when you approached me, that we should have waited for feedback from the other lords, as a sanity check, before making the next move.  However, right now it's damage control time! <3

I feel that this is a plea for attention, and an attempt to further turn people away from me.  It was a very quick reaction to Beau's conversation with Aaron, followed by Kara AND Aaron refreshing and reading the forums a lot, and Aaron's account refreshing the forums several times after having gone to work.  Also Aaron got very uncharacteristically chatty in guild chat after Kara left, in a way that seemed to be digging for something.

I don't know exactly what game is being played here, but it's wearing on my patience.



P.S. I will still write up the chronology of events surrounding her weird apology to me, beez, and nai after her return from her leave of absence.  But honestly, not right now.  I'm so tired of this ridiculousness and need a breather.  Also it's almost 8am and I haven't slept yet, lol.

fictitiousacct wrote:I know for certain that some members are aware of tension going on within, from beau, kittyn and kara.

I would like to point out that if rumours are spreading around or people are finding out about the situation, it is NOT from me. I am friendly with Kara in guild chat, continue to work with her in officer duties, and keep this matter to only those who are involved.

My whole point in taking on this investigation was to fend off drama at the pass.  I saw ahead and realized that this would probably get ugly before it got better.  My actions were unorthodox, but I feel that I got to the truth.  The drama is gone.  I feel my job is done.  I am unhappy that it ended this way for Kara, but I am certain that I have sided with the right person.  Kitty has done her best for us for a long time now.  

Kara came in guns blazing, emotions high, getting her own feelings hurt, and gunning for any one who she felt stood in her way (mostly Kitty).  She came back from her depression with a plan to discredit Kitty.  No matter how much I like Kara, I see through her game now.  I cannot allow spreading rumors about Kitty to tear apart my home.  I cannot allow it to turn me against people I trust.  I trust Kitty. I always have trusted Kitty.  We had a disagreement.  It got a little ugly, but we it worked out.  I never stopped trusting Kitty.  I would like to think we are friends again.

Kara found a weak spot with Kitty and I.  Kara tried to exploit that weak spot.  She tried to turn me against Kitty again.  She almost succeed, but she became over confident and showed me her hand.  

I was not expecting it to end this suddenly.  I was still hoping to be able to make a decision with the Lord's and Andrea's input.  I did not think admitting my change of heart would spin Kara out so fast.  She seemed like more of a fighter than that.  I guess she figured that if she lost me, then she lost her game.

The Beau Brothers wrote:
The other is that she told me that Kitty was absolutely raging over our last disagreement, and that Kitty wanted me kicked out of the guild.  I can believe that Kitty was very angry with me at the time and probably had a few choice words with her friends about me, but I doubt that she spread around, especially to Kara, that she wanted me kicked out.

Well I for one can say this is completely untrue. Kitty never said anything about kicking you from the guild, and we talked about this extensively.

Honestly, I didn't see it as a ticking time bomb of drama until you started whispering people.  I don't think the way you handled it beau was very unprofessional and there were a lot of things that have been going on outside most people's notice until it escalated to the point it is at now.  What needs to be done now is damage control, and I'd like to focus more on that for now.  We're focusing too much on what led up to this outcome and not enough on what resulted from it.

I want to add one amendment to my comments of last night.  

Why I do not trust Kara and why I am hesitant to ask her back.

Telling me that Kitty wanted me kicked out of the guild was a lie.  The only purpose of that lie would be to turn me against Kitty.  That is what firmed up my belief that her motives were not noble.  If she wanted to resolve things she would not be lying or exaggerating to try and turn members against Kitty.