Next Recruiting Drive.

Blank De Ratche wrote:So lots of good ideas here, but how do we get quality, over quantity?  I was thinking having the recruiter as a big brother (sister) type. they check up on their recruit and try to draw them out. or we could assign other members to this job.  With old players this could be nothing more than checking in with them and spending a few minutes talking to them.  Newer players would obviously need more help, and others could (should) help too, but the recruiter, or designated player would be responsible for making them feel part of the team.

I think part of it is making sure any new recruits are people you've either:
a) Partied with AT LEAST once for some significant period of time (not a single pug world boss, but more like a full dungeon run or the entire WB chain, etc)
or b) Have held at least one conversation with that would prove they'd be a good fit for the guild (map chat, friend of a friend, etc)

With exceptions of course, but without spending any time with the person or having a real conversation beyond "what events r up lololl" it would be hard to know if the person SHOULD be recruited in the first place.

This is all assuming we're not doing the "cast a large net and see what sticks" approach.

someone remind me to add another long-winded 2c here later <3

Kittynne wrote:someone remind me to add another long-winded 2c here later <3

2c plzplzplzplz ;o; <3

OK ... so .. (incoming wall of text probably ... I'm just going to ramble and see how this goes)

I think we need to address things at the source, where we recruit and how we recruit.  When we talk about quality vs quantity I, personally, mean aiming for quality BEFORE we extend an invite, rather than the hand-holding and coddling and babysitting that comes with being "big sibling". And here is why.

I have seen several threads recently, and some before I was an officer, where we as officers are being told (almost scolded, because it keeps coming up) to answer people more, because some members are feeling left out.  But here's the thing.  We are a guild of mostly adults.  And as adults, we are in charge of our own destiny and in charge of our own social interactions.  If somebody isn't answering you, then the onus is on you to speak up or ask again.  Not get upset and hurt because you "don't fit in".  It's like in real life, if you want to fit in, find a way to fit in.  If you don't get an answer, maybe there is something wrong with HOW you asked, or WHEN you asked.  

Like Taco, purposely saying things (like "i'm so bored") when guild chat is full of conversation.  If you engage me in a conversation I will talk to you, but if you say vague things that I cannot help you with or that aren't specifically directed at anyone or any specific thing, it is not my job to stop what I am doing and pull you out of your shell.

I think most of us officers try hard to respond whenever we can.  I often feel really noob because I answer a lot of questions with "sorry, I don't know", just for the sake of answering them.  And I see a lot of other officers do the same. And I don't know about anyone else, but I often stop gameplay to answer people, even when I don't have an answer.

So if we are still having issues with people feeling like they are not getting answered, instead of us making ourselves feel guilty because we as officers aren't doing enough, perhaps we need to put some onus back on those members. And if they are expecting us to hold their hand through everything and stroke their hair when they are bored or say something vague, maybe this isn't the place for them.  And I think this starts with how we select members to join us.

All these ideas for recruiting contests and mentorship after people join are lovely ideas, but they are ideas for a guild where the people in charge are expected to stand around and babysit, instead of play.  I'm happy to make time for people in guild who have valid concerns and issues, but I do not feel as officers we should be expected to stand around waiting for someone to say something in guild chat so we are ready to answer at all times.

Instead of focusing on these contests and mentoring, I think we should be firming up the requirements we have for how much we learn about a person before we invite them.  Beez's suggestions about having to have done some dungeons and had more than passing conversation I think is a really good start.  

I also think the first few weeks after someone has joined the guild should be a bit of a trial period, during which time any officer has the right to make their case as to why a certain individual does not fit our guild, for the other officers (and ultimately ratche) to consider.  I think it could have eliminated some of our problem children that make AoL less fun of a place to be than it used to be.  

Then again, this is from my past experiences leading guilds in other games.  I do not have the history with AoL that a lot of you do, so maybe the current status quo is what made AoL survive to this day, I don't know.

I'm sorry if this makes me feel like a selfish ahole but I really don't feel it does.  I give a lot of my time to talking to guildies who have issues and writing very long posts in the officer forums and administrative stuff and keeping an eye out for individuals in guild who may have a problem or issue or question.  I often halt play for 30 or more minutes, sometimes an hour or more, to talk to a single guildy if they have a concern.

^ wall of text hits you for 1000!

Also, I want to make it clear that I am in no way trying to disrespect the suggestions that others have made in this thread, like the contests and the big sibling ideas. I will support whatever decision is ultimately made, but I wanted to get my opposing opinion out there. <3

On, one more thing. Beez smells pretty <3

Kittynne wrote:

Like Taco, purposely saying things (like "i'm so bored") when guild chat is full of conversation.  If you engage me in a conversation I will talk to you, but if you say vague things that I cannot help you with or that aren't specifically directed at anyone or any specific thing, it is not my job to stop what I am doing and pull you out of your shell.

Kittynne wrote:
All these ideas for recruiting contests and mentorship after people join are lovely ideas, but they are ideas for a guild where the people in charge are expected to stand around and babysit, instead of play.  I'm happy to make time for people in guild who have valid concerns and issues, but I do not feel as officers we should be expected to stand around waiting for someone to say something in guild chat so we are ready to answer at all times.

These two things I agree with x 10000040573495834

And also the thing about the root of the issue being how we recruit.

Also that whole block of text, but mostly the things above.

Also Kitteez smells like love and sunshine.

The end.

Yuri Mortenzen wrote:I'd like to give them a chance and some space to grow so we get to know what they're like [...]Right now I just ask PUGS in fractals or dungeon groups. If they behave well, and I get some kind of sense they'd be OK, I try and recruit them...

Just to say I did it before it was cool

But yes, I've changed my ways too because i wanted to get more "consistent" players let's say... Takes more time and efforts and it sometimes fails... At the same time I'm using my friend list again...

Personally I don't think squires need to have the ability to invite. They can and maybe should be asked to help look for new members but I think the actual invite should be extended by an officer. There is nothing wrong with a squire asking an officer to invite people. This allows officers to ensure the proper due diligence is performed by the squire or other guild member with regards to quality.

More on this later. We are about to pull into a parking lot to do some grocery shopping!

I agree with beau, we do need to get new members, I think we've spent enough time culling the ranks, but I want to do it differently this time, I was thinking more of a, You recruit them, you play with them type thing, for a while, I don't want our new members to get lost in the shuffle. I really don't like the recruit and forget. We could ask other members to help with this.

I promised I would elaborate on my earlier post, so here goes!

Regarding squires and the ability to invite, I do not feel that they should have that ability.  Unfortunately GW2 is set up in a way that those who can invite can also promote/demote and kick members.  These activities should be left to the officers, who are aware of the policies regarding kicking, and have this forum here where we can discuss personnel issues, such as misbehaving members and members who we should promote.  Putting this in the hands of squires (who, really, we often promote quite quickly to this role), who are not aware of the goings-on in the officer forum, can lead to a situation where actions they take are essentially irreversible without hurting someone's feelings (like promotions that were not vetted by officers), or where the action itself hurts peoples' feelings or causes a mess (like kicking or demoting someone without knowing what is going on behind the scenes).

Any member has the ability to recruit new members to AoL, and keeping the actual invite function to officers does not, in any way, impede on this ability.  Since we want to run with a policy where members should get to know potential recruits first, by talking to them, playing with them, etc., there should _never_ be a situation where someone needs an invite that very moment or they won't join.  There is nothing wrong with any AoL member asking an officer to invite so-and-so to guild.  This works very well with most other guilds I've been in in my very very many years playing mmos, and there is no reason why it shouldn't work here too.


On an aside, Beau floated the idea to me earlier about maybe giving squires the ability to access the officers stash in guild bank.  Again I would caution against that.  The officer stash is where we keep things like the guild funds, and special items that are being held as contest prizes or other such things that do not belong in general population bank.  Although we trust most squires, there are some that get promoted without much real thought going into how trusted a member they are.  And we don't generally sit down with people and explain the expectations that come with their promotion.

I think we are too focused on giving people extra rights in order to make them feel special being promoted to a new rank.  A higher rank doesn't have to come with more rights necessarily.  Sometimes it's just the prestige of being higher rank that makes people happy.  And with the GW2 guild rank system being the way it is, I don't feel we should give more and more rights to squires just for the sake of giving them something.

I should also point out that if squires are given the ability to invite, they also have the ability to promote other people to squire.  It's a snowballing effect.

Food for thought.  I know ultimately it is only the opinion of one person, but I thought it warranted bringing up. <3

Also perhaps before we open everything up we should take the time to have an announcement written that outlines what is expected:

1. before inviting someone (like how to get to know them and determine if they are a good fit),
2. during the invite (like letting them know about rep rules, general "don't be a jerk" guild chat rules, guild mission info, etc), and
3. after the invite (like spending time with them and playing with them).  

It doesn't have to be as long as my rambly posts, but maybe just something point form, and a requirement that anybody who wishes to recruit members MUST read these guidelines.

I see the gmotd was already changed to say that we are openly recruiting again.  But we haven't indicated at all to the guild anything about who/how/when to recruit.  It feels like we are jumping the gun a tiny bit imo.

I like how Kitty put it - anybody that's being recruited shouldn't need an invite at that very second or be snatched up by another guild. *super late on replies this weekend, sorry guys*

The Beau Brothers wrote:After thinking about it and listening to/reading your concerns Kitty, I agree.  I don' think Admin Lower Ranks should be extended to Squire again.  Therefore, everyone who can invite has been able to read these conversations.  I think it will be OK.  I do not foresee a flood of new members.  I do want to come up with an official set of "Recruiting Guidelines."  Something that can be posted in the regular Round Table.

TY beau for taking the time to consider my words.

I think since we want to open up recruiting again, we should make sure that every officer knows they must read about our approach and try to adhere to it.  I know some officers are not yet in the habit of reading the forums regularly, and I think at least one officer doesn't read the forums at all.  How can we remedy this situation?  Should we be sending in game mail to all officers directing them to the officer forums when big things like this are happening?  Or should we all get in the habit of making sure we check the forums when things like this change?  I mean, reminders are nice, but (and especially with the suppression system being so sensitive) it's a lot of officers to have to send mail to.

Oh, also, does someone want to take some time to draft some sort of recruiting guidelines and post them here first for discussion/review?  I'll do it if we have no volunteers, but if someone wants to take the reigns (maybe someone that doesn't already have some other activities and things on the go?) that would be awesome.

B E E Z wrote:I like how Kitty put it - anybody that's being recruited shouldn't need an invite at that very second or be snatched up by another guild. *super late on replies this weekend, sorry guys*

We are like twins separated at birth, except you are a little more dirty and I am a little more srs bzns

I dunno ms kitteez...I think you're a freak in secret ;D

I'm bad a posting on the forums, but I do lurk them. >->
I think getting officers into the habit of checking the forums would be best. There's no guarantee people will read in-game mail (I know people who delete their mail about as soon as they get it). Plus you can only send two at a time before you get suppressed from 'spamming' mailboxes. It would be time-consuming to send out mail to each officer, even if there are only a few of us, unless there were multiple people designated to mailing certain officers.

Glad we won't be having a huge recruiting drive again. Personally, I really liked the guild buddy system (I VOLUNTEER AS GUILD SISTER) if we work it out a bit more. However, I dont think we should do it in the way that the person you recruit will be under your care, unless you want to. Think there should be a few eager people to do that to try it out. Also, if you have horrible recruiters (like me), they don't get the chance to do so.
I support the idea of not letting Squires recruit for now. Also, I'll make the recruiting guidelines and post them here first if you still need someone to do so.

So, what do we do? I'm more than happy to help setting something up for recruiting.

Andrea1704 wrote:So, what do we do? I'm more than happy to help setting something up for recruiting.

You and I talked the other day and you suggested maybe I would be the better choice to write up the recruiting guidelines. I just haven't had a chance to get to it sorry. Maybe instead of either one of us doing it, you and I can have a little brainstorm session in game and we can come up with it together?

Kittynne wrote:

Andrea1704 wrote:So, what do we do? I'm more than happy to help setting something up for recruiting.

You and I talked the other day and you suggested maybe I would be the better choice to write up the recruiting guidelines.  I just haven't had a chance to get to it sorry.  Maybe instead of either one of us doing it, you and I can have a little brainstorm session in game and we can come up with it together?

Sounds like a lovely idea.

What I meant, though, is what are we going to do now? We come with great suggestions and stuff, but I don't see some sort of final decision yet. Nothing is happening, or I must've missed out.

With regards to you and I brainstorming some recruiting guidelines, it's still on my to-do list but other things have derailed it this past weekend. I still hope to catch you when both of us have free time, so we can write up some recommended guidelines, to be posted here for others to approve/reject/modify.

But yeah, final decision will have to come after we've put together some ideas.

Maybe a first step is seeing which guildees would like to help with this, after we set expectations. I don't want our helpers to think they have to spend all their time with their new buddies, or feel they always have to do what the other person wants, though I would like some who would like to help new players especially because they could use more help, and others could help them with that too. I'm more interested in making the new person feel comfortable enough to be active in chat, and guild activities.

Oh lol I was thinking more about the guidelines that promote quality over quantity. For example, before someone is invited we should have played with them for a little bit to ensure they do not seem like a jerk up front. And we ensure they are willing to abide by basic rules like rapping, and don't be a dick, no trolling, etc.

I wasn't thinking about what happens after they join (e.g. A buddy system) because that is a separate task more like a welcoming committee.

I was strictly talking about recruiting rules, not welcoming and transitioning. I think we should tackle these as separate discussions.

TL;DR: I am talking about the egg. You are talking about the chicken. <3